Putting the "fun" in Fundamentals
Here comes another boring philisophical theory post. SOrry but this is what I think about at night.
I’m starting to believe that I have a very strong grip on the fundamentals of poker. If there was an actual percentage attached to how much of the fundamentals one understands, I would be above 90%.
But so is every other good player - and knowing the fundamentals can only get you so far.
In fact it can’t even make you an above average player. At best with just perfect fundamentals I would imagine that you could be a break-even player.
When I say fundamentals I guess what I’m talking about is how the game is “supposed” to be played. Learning what bets mean and how to respond to them is only a fraction of what really goes on in poker.
I say this because after playing thousands of SNG’s, I’ve developed a lot of recognition of betting patterns by certain types of players. This recognition has lead me to an ever increasing knowledge of the fundamentals that form the game. Against unknown (average) players, certain bets or moves almost always mean the same thing, so you can react accordingly pretty easily. And as long as you aren’t doing anything fundamentally wrong (like calling an early raise with KJ in the SB for example) you will have an undeniable edge over random_fish_01.
What has really started to make poker interesting for me is when I recognize other similarly minded and experienced players that have noticed and realized the same thing about certain betting patterns that I have. Once you get to that 2nd and 3rd level of thinking where you are playing the mind game of “I know that he knows that I would raise here with this hand...” then you have something really different going on - something that goes so far beyond basic fundamentals that they almost don’t even matter.
I suppose that is why good players can play almost any 2 cards and win, as long as they are actually able to out-think their opponents. Or maybe, force their opponents to out-think themselves.
That’s why I think you see a lot of good players doing some really stupid things sometimes. I’m guilty of this myself. It usually goes beyond what cards they do have and ends up being about what cards they can represent – or try to represent. Good players know that other good players know what certain bets mean. So good players try to exploit their opponents knowledge of the fundamentals against them. So if a good player min raises on the river with nothing, he knows his opponent will put him on a monster hand, since that what monster hands do on the river and he may fold.
Whats funny is that good players try so desperately hard not to play hands the way they are “typically” played in order to trick their opponents. When a good player starts playing a hand against me, like min raising me on the turn when the board pairs, I almost never put him on trips because I know that if they really did have trips they would play it some other strange sneaky way – and that the min raise is probably just a smart bluff designed to take the pot down with a minimum amount of chips. So it becomes a weird back and forth matchup. Sometimes I like to play a hand exactly as how they are “typically” played just because it fucks up good players so much as they think I would never play a hand in such a newbie manner.
I’m not terribly confident that I have the mental strength and confidence to make strong reads against very good players and I feel that this may be my long term downfall. Like I said, I know the fundamentals, and that will get me somewhere, but in order to beat the best players I’ll need a lot more than that. But I’ve been testing my reads out more and more liberally at the tables. Pushing when I have that “feeling” that I’m ahead and making tough laydowns when I have that “feeling” I’m beat. That “feeling” is basically a summation of your entire poker experience applied to the situation at hand, and you should be able to trust your own memories and experiences.
I’m starting to believe that I have a very strong grip on the fundamentals of poker. If there was an actual percentage attached to how much of the fundamentals one understands, I would be above 90%.
But so is every other good player - and knowing the fundamentals can only get you so far.
In fact it can’t even make you an above average player. At best with just perfect fundamentals I would imagine that you could be a break-even player.
When I say fundamentals I guess what I’m talking about is how the game is “supposed” to be played. Learning what bets mean and how to respond to them is only a fraction of what really goes on in poker.
I say this because after playing thousands of SNG’s, I’ve developed a lot of recognition of betting patterns by certain types of players. This recognition has lead me to an ever increasing knowledge of the fundamentals that form the game. Against unknown (average) players, certain bets or moves almost always mean the same thing, so you can react accordingly pretty easily. And as long as you aren’t doing anything fundamentally wrong (like calling an early raise with KJ in the SB for example) you will have an undeniable edge over random_fish_01.
What has really started to make poker interesting for me is when I recognize other similarly minded and experienced players that have noticed and realized the same thing about certain betting patterns that I have. Once you get to that 2nd and 3rd level of thinking where you are playing the mind game of “I know that he knows that I would raise here with this hand...” then you have something really different going on - something that goes so far beyond basic fundamentals that they almost don’t even matter.
I suppose that is why good players can play almost any 2 cards and win, as long as they are actually able to out-think their opponents. Or maybe, force their opponents to out-think themselves.
That’s why I think you see a lot of good players doing some really stupid things sometimes. I’m guilty of this myself. It usually goes beyond what cards they do have and ends up being about what cards they can represent – or try to represent. Good players know that other good players know what certain bets mean. So good players try to exploit their opponents knowledge of the fundamentals against them. So if a good player min raises on the river with nothing, he knows his opponent will put him on a monster hand, since that what monster hands do on the river and he may fold.
Whats funny is that good players try so desperately hard not to play hands the way they are “typically” played in order to trick their opponents. When a good player starts playing a hand against me, like min raising me on the turn when the board pairs, I almost never put him on trips because I know that if they really did have trips they would play it some other strange sneaky way – and that the min raise is probably just a smart bluff designed to take the pot down with a minimum amount of chips. So it becomes a weird back and forth matchup. Sometimes I like to play a hand exactly as how they are “typically” played just because it fucks up good players so much as they think I would never play a hand in such a newbie manner.
I’m not terribly confident that I have the mental strength and confidence to make strong reads against very good players and I feel that this may be my long term downfall. Like I said, I know the fundamentals, and that will get me somewhere, but in order to beat the best players I’ll need a lot more than that. But I’ve been testing my reads out more and more liberally at the tables. Pushing when I have that “feeling” that I’m ahead and making tough laydowns when I have that “feeling” I’m beat. That “feeling” is basically a summation of your entire poker experience applied to the situation at hand, and you should be able to trust your own memories and experiences.
posted by RikkiDee at 10:26 PM
3 Comments:
heh, I've got some experiance, but I play at such low levels (6+.50) that some of the crap I see just makes me sick and I know that if I stick to ABC poker Im in the money baring any unforseen suckouts.
I mean position does not matter at my limits, its a joke really. I'm only going to raise with monsters out of first position and yet I know there will always be 1-3 callers behind me, its really fun so see these jokers call me with 68s and see them hit nut straights or call me with A3 and bust my KK, I've learned just to shrug it off, and so far Im dominating these limits.
hey how much do you think my B roll should be to start trying the 12+1's? I kinda would like to get to like 800 or something, I donno is that even enough?
I'd say as long as you are achieving a solid ROI% over a decent sample size at the $6 games. Maybe 250 games or so - since the skill level isn't really all that different imo from $6-$15
well I'm certainly not jumping into the 15+1's anytime soon, I just dont think my b roll could sustain it. and although I've never had a 0/6 or an 0/8 steak Im still kinda new to this shit.
btw I tryed 10 S&G's at once for the first time last night making a clean profit of 36+ which was sick (and probably will never happen again), and Im consistantly making the final table of the 11 dollar shootouts to the million dollar, 3 out of 6 (3rd, 5th, and one right now)
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